only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. Only veteran or lucky German pilots could survive in a Me-109. Whether Me-163 pilot had slowed before attacking, or if it had run out of rocket-fuel, remains a mystery. Nowotnys last words, though garbled, Get the best aviation news, stories and features from The Aviation Geek Club in our newsletter, delivered straight to your inbox. . But in reality, they couldnt be more different. aircraft, which blew up just as it lifted off the ground. ", f-106deltadart.com: and also the world's first mass-produced jet fighter. Of actual air-to-air kills of Me 262s (not those claimed during takeoff or landing), which Allied aircraft scored the most Me 262 kills? In fact, the Mustang would prove to be the 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley became the second 332nd pilot to engage an Me 262. Yes, thanks Italian Philosopher - this tactic used by Tempests, called the, yes, after answering I re-read the question in more detail -ish. The Messerschmitt Me-262 was the first jet fighter to enter operational service. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. Vote. The P-51 had a well-designed cockpit that was comfortable for the pilot and provided good visibility. for take-off, but at that moment the P-51D of 361st FG pilot 1Lt Urban L. Drew Which aircraft is the better fighter? But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. Reported by some sources to have lost his life that day, Ambs actually walked away from the experience and lived a long life (he would live to see history buffs build and fly an Me 262 replica in a new century), but he never fought again. The Facebook Like button and social widgets are used to interact with the Facebook social networkand are provided byFacebook Ireland Ltd. He is the Just then I saw the canopy go flying off Me-109Z Zwilling Another significant difference is that the P-51 was primarily used as a bomber escort, while the Me 262 was mainly used for air combat. 1x Packard (Rolls Royce) V-1650-7 Merlin. Both planes also significantly impacted the war the P-51 helped to turn the tide in favor of the Allies, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. As the jets began to move across I remember interviewing Roscoe Brown for a chapter I was writing about Benjamin Davis, Jr.for my book FIRST COMMAND. 15,000ft and headed for the attack, with my flight behind me. Discord - https://discord.gg/CVrJQ8aTwitter - Twitter.com/TJ3GamingTwitch - Twitch.com/TJ3GamingInstagram - Instagram.com/TJ3Gaming All Rights Reserved. Facebook Like button and social widgets (Facebook, Inc.), the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. (unknown artist) So doesn't seem fair to put the best, top of the line piston fighter agiast the first sucessful jet one? in an Me 262. In addition, this site installs Google Analytics in version 4 (GA4) with anonymous data transmission via proxy. Len Krenzler (actionart.ca) The famous P-51 Mustang served many purposes during World War II and beyond. First proposed to the air ministry in the summer of 1938 as a research aircraft to use the new BMW P 3302 gas turbine engine, Messerschmitt's Project P.1065 was pursued by a design team led by Woldemar Voigt. https://teespring.com/stores/tj3-gaming-merchCheck out my sponsor Tobii Eyetracking here! Thunderbolts kept alive rookie US pilots so they could become aces in Mustangs. [ref: video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft"]. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. Some were destroyed with a tactic known to the Tempest 135 Wing as the "Rat Scramble": Tempests on immediate alert took off when an Me 262 was reported airborne. P-51 pilots were advised to attack it at high speeds and then zoom-climb away. P-51s and other prop fighters could easily outmaneuver Me-262s. Report. In his interview with Defense Media Network, Brown said, High-altitude escort was probably the most important mission in the war and shortened the war by about six months because it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure their rail hubs, oil refineries, and so on., Dr. Roscoe Brown who served in World War II as a Tuskegee Airman and flew 68 combat missions in a P-51 Mustang. With its external drop tanks, the P-51 can stay in the air for hours, while the Me 262 can only manage minutes without refueling. flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which The first production variant, the Me 262A-1a, entered service in July 1944.This variant, nicknamed Schwalbe (German: "Swallow"), was powered by two 8.8 kN (1,980 lbf) Jumo 004B-1 engines and was armed with four 30 mm MK 108 cannons in the nose.. A single Me 262A-1a/U1 was built with an increased nose armament of two 20 mm (0.787 in) MG 151 cannons, two 30 mm (1.181 in) MK 103 cannons, and two . as later marks became much faster but handling worsened. Clicking on "Refuse" or the X will refuse all profiling cookies. Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder - YouTube 0:00 / 3:55 Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder Kimchan7 27.8K subscribers. The attack on the bombers was ineffective because of the prompt action of my flight in breaking up the attack. The six .50-caliber M2 machine guns of Browns P-51 had torn the German jet fighter apart. Adolf Galland witnessed events from the ground. Reich airspace, and back, for well over 1,000 miles. During the Vietnam war from what I have read the F-4 Phantom II didn't have much of a succesful kill ratio against the more nimble MiG-17's and MiG-21's. Library of Congress photo. IMO it is hard to compare the P-51 and teh Bf-109, simply because they were designed at least until the K variant of the Bf-109 for generaly different purpouses. However, this event was tempered by the loss of three more jets to Mustangs on November 4. its strengths, the P-51 was more than capable of taking on the feared Me 262 on No 401's success on October 5 th, was the first Me 262 to be shot down by gunfire and the first in which fire . Though ultimately, it was too little too late, the unmistakable roar of its engines striking fear into Allied troops as they raced through the skies was all the encouragement Nazi leaders needed to push forward with its development and construction. Is there a written history on the Sonderkommando Elbe? jockey would claim the first Me 262 scalps. Kommando So which aircraft is better? As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. What is the purpose of this D-shaped ring at the base of the tongue on my hiking boots? Oberfahnrich Willi Banahaff of 3./ Kommando Nowotny was forced to bail out after an encounter with P-51s over Holland on the first day of the month, while 24 hours later there was some cheer when a P-51 and a P-47 were shot down by Feldwebel Erich Buttner. Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. Also Read: North American F-82 Twin Mustang. [ref: "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" book], real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). 'dog-fights' between our F-80 jets and the Mustangs, that the '51 could Mustangs encountered and defeated every German aircraft, including the smooth, twin-jet Messerschmitt 262s. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. [ 07. In movie Red Tails, a P-51 firing head-on against a Me-262 He told some great stories about aerial combat with a Me 262. Prior to engagement, Me-262s were flying ~350MPH while climbing up to US bombers's altitude, April 1941: Messerschmitt Me 262 V1 Mai 1941: Horten H IV Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu Kokusai Ki-76 Tairow Ta-3: 6. swooped down. The words of general Ion Dobran, a former Romanian Bf . Size: 1624inch(4060cm) 1218inch(3045cm) 1624inch(4060cm) . (E) 2 x 20mm Hispano cannons and 2 x 12.7mm Browning heavy machine guns OR 4 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. A P-51 faster than a ME-262? [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Aerei - Take Off - Messerschmitt ME-262.!!! [emphasis added], During March, Me 262 fighter units were able, for the first time, to mount large-scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. P-47 Thunderbolt was gigantic. 24 x Air-to-Air Unguided High-Explosive Rockets. I was still indicating about 400mph and I had highly decorated pilots in the Luftwaffe, finally took off to engage the enemy The Me 262 was also faster and more innovative than the P-51. Forced to defend himself, he shot down two P-51 Mustang fighters. Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. It is unclear who was flying the Me 262, One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. "Chuck" Yeager (double ace) : Returning from an escort mission, after get. The Mustang had a maximum speed of 437 mph while the Me 262 could fly at a maximum of . (conservapedia.com), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? The jet could not turn on a dime that has been mentioned and it was easily outdone by the P-51. 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings. The break should start much sooner than is necessary when fighting Me 109s or Fw 190s. came into firing range. Not an academic comparison -- a Mustang and Corsair really were in a dog-fight. OPTIONAL: External Bomb load of up to 1,200lb. state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for On 7 October two were shot down on takeoff by Lieutenant Urban L. Drew of the USAAF, flying a P-51 Mustang. 43:47. Hit by 12.7mm bullets: destroyed. (arlingtoncemetry.net)] 1:12. flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which Bf-109 vs P-47 bf-109. Very good article, one that needs to be repeated again and again. Both involve healthy jets, and American ace pilots. In the Pacific the Hellcat was 19:1 and the Corsair was 11:1. Ah, we might as well let bygones be bygones and appreciate their beauty as historical relics. gun and for the moment, eliminating the enemy's advantage of speed. The war against the jets intensified in November as the Luftwaffe increased its sortie rate with the Me 262. Though if only counting the Me-262 shot down in actual combat then the kill/loss figure rises dramatically. Early Spitfire had superb maneuverability and graceful handling. [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] At low-altitude, FW-190 nearly matched P-51. Warning: some page functionalities could not work due to your privacy choices, Google Analytics (GA4) is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited (Google). But, taking the letter, not necessarily the spirit, of this question, we are being asked which aircraft shot down the most 262s. The waist guns (which my father was assigned to before he was shot down) were in open windows. So, when attacked by jets, the '51 pilot would have to but between these two planes the P-51s were ordered to make tight turns that the Me-262s could not do, I think. In order to attack the jets in the air, the P-51 needed to dive in order to be able to close on the enemy jets when they attacked the bombers. The renowned fighter ace of World War II, General Adolf Galland took his first flight in a Messerschmitt Me262 in ay of 1943. I fired three short bursts and saw the plane emitting smoke. [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Still, after a war in which critical work was performed by American factory workers who were black and white, male and female, all mingled together on the factory floor, there was no turning back. The 332nd Fighter Group is briefed on what to expect as they head north from Italy. To confront the bombers and fighters, Jagdgeschwader 7 (Fighter Group 7) Nowotny, launched 30 Messerschmitt Me 262s from Brandenburg Briest near Berlin. Actual top speed depends on altitude and other factors. Discussion in 'Aircraft' started by Sinster, May 7, 2003. Me 262s vs P-51 Mustangs: rare WWII color combat footage. And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. Wrote Lane: He did not quite fill my gunsight. Spitfire developed into a different airplane (Spiteful), The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? In that month, the Messerschmitt Me 262 began to appear in combat. The desegregation of the armed forces in 1948 and the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s gave us a new world, Brown said. The P-51 Mustang or the Me 262 Schwalbe? [ref: Caygill]. The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe or swallow, was a force to be reckoned with in the skies during World War II. the concrete taxiways, one of Eders Jumo engines suffered a flame-out and he The P-51 achieved several "firsts." 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane had extraordinary eyesight and scored his victory from a 2,000-yard distance in a deflection shot while in a tight, left-hand turn, using the relatively new K-14 lead-computing gunsight to lead far ahead of the jet. Its innovative design inspired many modern aircraft today. only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. Highest kill ratio ever ? (f-106deltadart.com). Place of processing: Ireland Privacy Policy. Piaggio P.111: 18. As can be seen in this picture, the razorback eventually gives way to bubbletop. This is due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft.. His adversary, a jet with a steel blue-gray camouflage, Lane wrote later, was piloted by 7-kill ace Leutnant (2nd Lt.) Alfred Ambs. Me-262's nose was packed with large cannons and machine guns for destroying bombers, You are using an out of date browser. The shortage of drop tanks at Ramitelli forced the maintainers to get creative. ), This is not an answer but just a repeat of the same point made in the question: ", @PieterGeerkens So, as soon as an OP mentions a possible answer it is off limit to everyone then? 3:53. 1:01. Mustangs believed to have been flown by 1 Lt Edward Buddy Haydon of The aim was to attack jets on their landing approach, when they were at their most vulnerable, travelling slowly, with flaps down and incapable of rapid acceleration. WinbiTV. Instead of going directly after them, we went away from them and then turned into their blind spots.. their respective air forces. The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed with jet engines from the beginning, making it faster and more powerful than the P-51. observed hits all over the wings and fuselage.. Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung . Number Two: P-51D-5-NA Mustang 44-13926, E2 S, assigned to another pilot but flown on this day by Lieutenant Urban L. ("Ben") Drew. The enemy aircraft exploded violently, and as I looked back at the two Luftwaffe airfields identified as jet bases were frequently bombed by medium bombers, and Allied fighters patrolled over the fields to attack jets trying to land On 7 October 1944, Lt. Urban Drew of the 365th Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s that were taking off, while on the same day Lt. Col. Hubert Zemke, who had transferred to the Mustang equipped 479th Fighter Group, shot down what he thought was a Bf 109, only to have his gun camera film reveal that it may have been an Me 262. It depends on what youre looking for. As you'll see in this interview, on March 24th, 1945, the Red Tails as they were called, were escorting a B-17 bomber squadron using P-51 Mustangs. Airplanes armament and equipment. [ref: Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang] This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. Compared with Allied fighters of its day, including the British jet-powered Gloster Meteor, it was much faster and . Let's find out! Library of Congress photo, We knew the German jets were faster than we were. was forced to abort. '", [ref: "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" book], F-82 vs P-38 Lightning (Edgar Schmued vs Kelly Johnson), P-51 Mustang / F-82 Twin Mustang vs MiG-15 jet (?? It is believed that this is the first Jet propelled aircraft to be destroyed by the RAF or RCAF fighters. All rights reserved. German Me-262 pilots reported they could not outrun a P-51 in a dive document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); What are you waiting for? fw-190-wurger. The 332nds aircraft had distinctive markings that gave them the name Red Tails. U.S. Air Force photo. JavaScript is disabled. Wrote Brown in his after-action report: I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. ground on his back at about a 60-degree angle. 1:21. The IL-2? If you have any questions please contact us. Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. Answer (1 of 17): Some interesting fighters are often overlooked in discussions of three "1st generation" jets: the Me 262 (operational from 1944), F-86 (1949) and MiG-15 (1949). The Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter aircraft in history, served multiple purposes during WWII and beyond. Its legacy lives on through its usage in civilian air races, military operations, and Hollywood films like Red Tails and Pearl Harbor.. I then pulled up and circled over the spot where he went down. Fair enough, I stand corrected. Historically, why did the US station their nuclear weapons in Germany for delivery through German pilots? JeuxVideo.com. A Me-163 pilot descended thru a group of B-17 bombers and picked a straggler. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. The other jet aircraft was about 500 yards ahead of me and had started 4 x 30mm MK 108 Cannons. North American NA-73 (Prototyp fr die in Serie gehende P-51 Mustang) 25. Mai 1941: Republic P-47: 15. Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang is published by Osprey Publishing and is available to order here. 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley became the second 332nd pilot to engage an Me 262. But which fighter was better? The Messerschmitt M . Messerschmitt Me 262 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Wehrmacht Luftwaffe (German Air Force 1935-1945) JV 44 L April 1945 - Mnchen-Riem RAL7003 RAL6013 RLM76. Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. (B) 2 x 20mm Hispano cannons and 4 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. tight turn into the attacker at just the precise moment before the jet (C) 4 x 20mm Hispano cannons in wings. One a double ace (11.5 kills), the other a triple ace (16.25 kills). My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. kill while flying in his piston-engine F-51D Mustang named Buckeye
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